Menstruation Matters with Bridget Crawford & Emily Waldman

On today’s episode, Bridget Crawford and Emily Waldman of Pace University School of Law join me and UVA Law 3Ls Kate Granruth and Jenna Smith. Bridget Crawford’s scholarship focuses on taxation and gender and the law. She teaches courses on Federal Income Taxation; Estate and Gift Taxation; and Wills, Trusts and Estates. Emily Waldman teaches courses on Constitutional Law, Law & Education, Employment Law, and Civil Procedure. Today we’re discussing their book, Menstruation Matters: Challenging the Law’s Silence on Periods, published by NYU Press in 2022 and their 2022 article, Contextualizing Menopause in the Law, co-authored with my UVA colleague, Naomi Cahn, and published in the Harvard Journal of Gender and the Law. 

Show Notes:

"Menstruation in a Post-Dobbs World," 98 NYU L. Rev. Online 191 (2023) (Crawford and Waldman)

"Pink Tax and Other Tropes," 33 Yale J.L. & Feminism 88 (2023) (Crawford)

"Managing and Monitoring the Menopausal Body," 2022 U. Chi. Legal Forum (forthcoming 2022) (Cahn, Crawford, & Waldman)

"Contextualizing Menopause in the Law," 43 Harv. J. Gender & Law 1 (2022) (Cahn, Crawford, and Waldman)

"Working Through Menopause," 99 Wash. U. L. Rev. 1531 (2022) (Cahn, Crawford, and Waldman)

Andrew Jennings and Kimberly D. Krawiec, Vice Capital (forthcoming 2024)

Transcript

Taboo Trades, Season 4 Episode 5: “Menstruation Matters with Bridget Crawford & Emily Waldman”

Transcript edited by Jenna Smith and Kate Granruth

Emily Waldman: I think some of it is just sort of like physical distaste or discomfort with the idea that these processes sort of involve, to be blunt, like sort of like fluids, right? Whether it's like breast milk or menstrual blood or things like that. Things that sort of seem like, physically messy, and there's some sort. Sort of stigma or distaste around that.

Kim Krawiec: Hey. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Taboo Trades Podcast, a show about stuff we aren't supposed to sell but do anyway. I'm your host, Kim Krawiec. My guests today are Bridget Crawford and Emily Waldman of Pace University School of Law. Bridget Crawford's scholarship focuses on taxation and gender and the law. She teaches courses on federal income taxation, estate and gift taxation and wills, trusts, and estates. Emily Waldman teaches courses on constitutional law, law and education, employment law, and civil procedure. Today, we're discussing their book, Menstruation Matters Challenging the Law's Silence on Periods,published by NYU Press in 2022, and their 2022 article, Contextualizing Menopause and the Law, coauthored with my UVA colleague Naomi Khan, and published in the Harvard Journal of Gender and the Law. Kate and Jenna, why don't you guys introduce yourselves to the podcast audience?

Kate Granruth: Hi, everybody. I'm Kate. I'm a double Hoo. So, I'm a third-year law student. I graduated from UVA with a gender Studies degree in 2021, which is sort of what led me to this, hosting this particular episode about menstruation. Definitely a topic that I had a lot of first-hand experience with, but also I'm really curious about studying the way that this almost universal experience affects the populations and the different populations. And it's something that I'm really curious to learn more about, and I'm really excited to speak to our host about.

Jenna Smith: Hi, my name is Jenna Smith. I, unlike Kate, don't have a super intensive background in gender studies, but I think it's such an interesting topic, and I think, especially for this class, delving into such a common market that we barely ever talk about, it's really the perfect topic for taboo trades. So, I'm really excited to speak with our hosts today.

Kim Krawiec: You've guys both volunteered to be the co-host for this episode, and Kate, you've already talked a little bit about what motivated that decision. Can you talk a little bit more about what made you want to choose this topic and these authors to be the ones that you were the co-host for?

Kate Granruth: Absolutely. So, like I said, I was a gender studies major. I more studied the sort of broad social implications, and so never really getting into what felt like the nitty gritty experience of being a woman or having a female body, that sort of thing. And so, all of our topics were so interesting, but when I saw one that was so aligned with gender and sort of aligned with the work I see myself doing long term, my career about female autonomy and that sort of legal protections for that, it just seemed like a really good fit. And I was really excited to learn about what work already exists in this space that is so tangible for so many people.

Kim Krawiec: And, Jenna, what about you?

Jenna Smith: Kind of similar here. I feel like, as a woman, these are experiences that, you know, we go through in our everyday lives, but I feel like I don't really know much about the market behind it. So, I thought it would be really cool to kind of learn by doing, by volunteering for this topic.

Kim Krawiec: I'll stick with you. Jenna, what do you hope to learn from the authors today, or what sort of questions do you hope they'll answer for?

Jenna Smith: I'm really interested in just learning a little bit more about their backgrounds and what drove them to get into this specific type of research, because it's something that's a part of everyday life, but so few people really dig deep into it. So, I'm curious what inspired them to do that.

Kim Krawiec: Kate, what about you?

Kate Granruth: Yeah, I mean, the sort of piece we read and discussed is about the silence of the law on periods. And it's such a broad thing. There's so much to learn about because it's so little that's actually talked about. So that's what I'm most excited for, is just diving headfirst into the stigma and having conversations that people just don't have about this experience of menstruation and menopause, but more than half the population experiences it.

Kim Krawiec: Yeah, I'm with both of you. I'm interested, as Jenna said, in sort of how they came to this topic, what prompted their interest, but also going to the stigma mean, I'm interested in whether they feel that they've experienced any stigma in terms of researching this. How do their colleagues react? What's been the acceptance? I mean, clearly they have a book coming out on this. This is what we're discussing. So, they've been successful with the topic, but I am interested in whether they think there have been any specific hurdles to promoting and presenting their research, given, again, the taboo surrounding the discussion of menstruation and menopause. Jenna, anything else from you?

Jenna Smith: I think I'm good.

Kim Krawiec: Okay. Kate?

Kate Granruth: Nope, just excited to get started.

Kim Krawiec: Great.

Kim Krawiec: Emily it's nice to meet you.

Emily Waldman: It's really nice to meet you and see everybody. Thank you for inviting us.

Kim Krawiec: Thank you for agreeing to do it. We're all very excited. Bridget, hello.

Bridget Crawford: Hello.

Kim Krawiec: Welcome again. And I think we're going to start by just turning it over to Kate.

Kate Granruth: Hi, Emily. Hi, Bridget. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you so much for being with us. Really enjoyed reading your work and I'm super excited for this discussion. Our first sort of section of questions is about the variable experience of menstruation and finding balance in that. So, several times throughout the excerpt, the fact that the experience of menstruation varies from person to person is mentioned in support of the notion that painting it as like a wholly negative experience reinforces negative stereotypes about menstruation. I understand and also, to an extent, accept this premise. However, I also feel like elementary school sex ed and American Girl seminal book the Care and Keeping of You kind of reinforced the idea that every woman's body is different. And I do think this mindset kind of led me to contribute to my severe menstruation symptoms, like thinking they were normal, which delayed getting treatment for them. How do we inform people about what things are medically abnormal and dangerous while respecting that everyone does have a different experience. And do you feel like stigma is the only reason people aren't talking about menstruation? Or does the sort of constant telling of girls that it's supposed to be different, obscure symptoms that are not normal?

Emily Waldman: I think that's a really interesting question, because on the one hand, it does vary for everybody. On the other hand, if anybody is really having a lot of discomfort, they should get treatment for it, or they should at least look into what types of treatments are available. And so, you want to sort of, I think, get both messages out, because whether it's normal or not to be in a lot of discomfort, even if it's normal, there are still different treatments that might help alleviate it. And so, I think part of the importance is just making sure that people are talking about it. It doesn't mean they have to be talking about it with everybody if they don't want to, but at least talking about it with healthcare providers or maybe leading up to that, talking about it with somebody.

Bridget Crawford: I really appreciate your question, Kate, because you're sort of inviting us to consider what role stigma is playing. And I think we have to first understand stigma as a silencing force here. And silencing is the reason that people don't talk about their menstruation experience to even get at this question of what is within the range of variability. But in all of this discussion of everybody is different. We also have to highlight, as Emily said, that severe pain is not inevitable or something that should be accepted, that everyone having an idiosyncratic experience doesn't mean that they have to accept pain, extreme bleeding, debilitating cramps. So, I like your question because it's really inviting us to both do away with stigma. But then also, let's not sort of hide behind difference as being a reason not to talk about the right to have a medical treatment that addresses debilitating menstruation related symptoms, which not everyone has, but some people do. And those are important to talk about as well.

Emily Waldman: One thing I'll just add, it made me think about something I hadn't focused on quite so much before, is sometimes the idea that things are normal is almost like itself, a silencing thing. We've seen this with other things, like with our research on menopause, where people are like, oh, well, you have this thing. Well, that's normal. So that you have hot flashes, or you have sleep disturbances. Well, that's normal. So that means that you've just got to deal with it and suck it up. And you're not entitled to any sort of modification or accommodation because it's normal. And the whole sort of normal abnormal as like a binary thing can really be problematic. And same with menstruation. Right? Maybe it is normal, at least not atypical, to have really bad cramps, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything about it or that you shouldn't be entitled to some sort of modifications. Just because it's something that a lot of people have, it can still have a real effect on you. And if there are modifications or treatments that would help you deal with it, you should get them, even if it is normal.

Kate Granruth: Thank you so much for that.

Kim Krawiec: Since we were talking about stigma and silence, one of the things that Jenna, Kate and I were discussing before you guys joined us was whether any stigma or silence accompanied your research, especially when you first embarked on mean, obviously you've had a fair amount of success. I've seen you guys presenting at conferences, and you have two books and a number of papers. But was there any hurdles that you thought you might have had to overcome, given the subject matter, that you wouldn't have been if you had been writing about something that affected the other 50% of the population?

Bridget Crawford: Yes, absolutely. And I remember very clearly the very first time I presented my work about the tampon tax and human rights to our faculty at pace. And there were two of my male colleagues sitting right in the front of the audience who laughed throughout most of my presentation, thinking everything I said was incredibly funny. And although I like a lively presentation as much as everyone, menstruation is a topic that deserves serious scholarly treatment. And I suspect if we had been talking about a medical, biological, inevitable bodily function that half the other half of the population experiences exactly as you said, that would not have been my experience. That being said, I think out of that act of presenting to the faculty, a lot of doors were opened. And the most important was the collaboration that started between Emily and me because it was my coming at it, at these questions of menstruation and law from a tax angle that really allowed for a very fruitful partnership to begin, because Emily, with her experience in employment law and constitutional law and education law, said, wow, I can see how these things fit together. And so, I would endure that laughter again, because I think we're really on to something, and I think we're really proud of our work having practical impact.

Emily Waldman: I Agree. Within academia what Bridget is saying, I absolutely remember that. In general, I haven't found that we've encountered that much. Sometimes, I'll be completely honest, just in my own life, people here that I wrote a book say, oh, what's it about? There are sometimes where, depending on who it is, it's the random father of one of my kids’ friends. Or they'll say, have you ever written a book? And sometimes, like, oh, do I really want to start talking about this with this random person? I don't really know. It's more like that. Not that they would say anything rude, but there is this sense, and I think part of it is the stigma around menstruation or just generally talking about bodily functions. Right. That's just not something we talk about so much. So, it's, like, intriguing to people, but sometimes I feel like, oh, I don't know if I feel like getting into it with someone. I don't know that well.

Bridget Crawford: We have found more resistance or more silence in response to the mention of our new project, which is a book co-authored with Naomi Khan about the intersections of menopause and the law, young people of all gender identities - when we mention that we're working on menstruation, they're like, yes, I get it. That's important. I see that as a just issue. But because of the ageism and sexism double whammy associated with menopausal bodies, reception has been a little less enthusiastic, and we're hoping to change the dialogue there, too, because all of the same issues of stigma, taboo, and what's normal come up again and at various life stages with different biological related processes and life events.

Kim Krawiec: Yeah, thank you for that. And we do have a number of questions about the new project and about menopause coming up from the students. Let's go on to Jenna.

Jenna Smith: Hi, Bridget and Emily. Thank you for joining us today. So, for me, when talking about this topic, I find it a little bit hard to strike the right balance. On one hand, periods are an experience that half the population deals with, and there's absolutely no reason for it to be as taboo of a topic as it is. People should be able to talk about the impact that it has on their lives. But then, on the other hand, a menstruating person isn't necessarily unable to function normally in society. And I worry that a strong focus on it could lead to a little bit more marginalization and discrimination. So as scholars who talk about this topic, how do you balance these realities?

Emily Waldman: So, I think both of those are true. I think, yeah, there is no reason for it to be taboo. And at the same time, you don't want to overemphasize it and make it seem like it's this huge obstacle that people face. And I think we try to strike that balance in our book just by emphasizing that different people are affected differently. And many people may not need any sort of modifications made or anything like that, but that some people do. And that the ultimate point is that menstruation shouldn't be holding anyone back from full participation. And for some people, it already isn't holding them back at all. And then for others who are just sort of thinking about how that's happening and what could change about it.

Bridget Crawford: I think, Jenna, your point is super important because menstruation is not a disability. Right. And so, we have kept our eyes on legislation in jurisdictions like Spain that now provide for menstrual leave. And I think reasonable minds can disagree whether that is a boost or a cost and a potential site of further discrimination. I myself am concerned about something like menstruation leave because of the experience in countries that have had it. We find that folks who menstruate are reluctant to take that leave for fear of being stigmatized or fear of being discriminated against. So maybe it's a symbolic victory. But then again, menstruation isn't a disability. And I think the opportunity for employees, other employees who have to, quote, pick up the slack of employees who are out consistently every month could lead to some not only internal tensions, but potentially systematic discrimination.

Kate Granruth: Thank you so much. So, we're going to move into our next section, which is the role of law and sort of legal systems. And the first question, and that is from my classmate Dennis.

Dennis Ting: Thanks Kate and thank you so much for taking our questions. So, during the COVID-19 pandemic, one of the bright spots was the CARES act provision that allowed funds from tax advantage health savings accounts to be used for purchasing menstrual care products. And I think the exact language that was used from the book we read was that the change laid the groundwork for additional and more expansive policy reform. So, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what future changes do you foresee with coming from that CARES act provision that acknowledged the medical necessity of these menstrual products, for example, could this eventually lead to a similar period products act that Scotland enacted being something we see here in the States as well?

Emily Waldman: Honestly, I think it's unlikely that anything as expansive as what happened in Scotland would happen here. On another front, something that is coming down the pipe was that a law was recently passed called the Pregnant Workers Fairness act, which requires accommodations for pregnant employees. And it doesn't require those employees to show that they're having a - back to this normal abnormal dichotomy. They don't have to show that they're having some sort of abnormal pregnancy in order to be entitled to an accommodation. Right. They have this sort of freestanding entitlement to reasonable accommodations that their doctors are recommending. So, for example, like not having to lift something that's heavy or things like that. And one of the interesting things, you're wondering, how does this connect to menstruation? Well, one of the interesting things is that there is a real push to get menstruation sort of folded in as a condition related to pregnancy, so that lawyers would also have to make accommodations that reasonable accommodations that employees need for things related to menstruation. asterisk. There's also now at least a push among some scholars we know, which we've signed on to, to try to get menopause folded into that, too. But that, I think, is an area where we may see more legal change in the future. I don't think some sort of broad thing in terms of providing free menstrual products to everyone who needs them is on the horizon, though there has been growth in terms of states passing laws about doing that in schools.

Dennis Ting: Oh, thank you for that.

Jenna Smith: All right. Thank you so much. And then our next question is going to come from Julia.

Julia D’Rozario: Hi, thank you so much for joining us today. You mentioned workplace accommodations like menstrual leave and the possible downsides of those policies, like potential hiring, discrimination and stigma against eligible workers who use those accommodations. I was wondering if you think that there's a way to implement those policies that would work better in practice, and also whether you think that those types of accommodations are necessary in the first place because people aren't actually getting appropriate diagnoses and medical care for menstrual conditions and pain.

Emily Waldman: Okay, so I'll start with this, and Bridget can add stuff if she wants to. One thing I'll say that we thought was really interesting that we talked about a bit in the book with menstrual leave. Like, why can that lead to a backlash? There was a really interesting study conducted by researchers that indeed found that the respondents, on the one hand, they were sort of supportive of the idea of menstrual lead for people who needed it, but then they also expressed a lot of negatives, a lot of concerns, and it really seemed like where we thought that came from was people are worried about how it's going to affect them. Like, if other people take this, is more work going to fall on me? It was sort of seeing things as like a zero-sum game. If these people are getting leave, the people who are saying they need it for menstruation related reasons, who's going to pick up the slack? Will that create more work for me? What if I needed time left for something else? As opposed to, let's say, like providing free menstrual products to students in school or people in prison, there's less of, like a zero-sum game, right? It's just products are available, anyone who needs them can get them. There's less of this idea that people are going to lose out, whereas when it's your colleague is getting to take time off, you feel like that might negatively affect you. So, in terms of what could be a better strategy for employers that want to be accommodating, what these researchers thought, which made sense to us, was the more sort of broad based these are, the better. So rather than it's like specific menstrual leave policy, like having sort of more flexible workplaces in general for any number of reasons, if somebody isn't feeling well and needs to work remotely on a particular day, right. And the more that it's framed in terms of something that everyone can benefit from, there's less of the potential for resentment and backlash, and same with menopause and things like that. Right. The more that it's about moving from accommodating one particular employee to just having workplaces that are more generally accommodating, everyone can buy into that because everyone feels like they might benefit from it, too. 

Julia D’Rozario: Thank you.

Kate Granruth: All right, our next question will be from Amina.

Aamina Mariam: Hi! So, I was wondering, during the discussion in the book, you talked about recognizing conditions like pregnancy and menstruation as signs of fertility versus labeling menopause as a sign of infertility, which has a more negative connotation, and that's how people seem to perceive the different categories, and that had a more general tone of ageism. So, do you think that protections against age discrimination can bolster menopause protections? And if so, how?

Bridget Crawford: One of the things we're very interested in is how to build a menopause movement. Where would we find support? And very interestingly, AARP, formerly known as the American Association of Retired Persons, is very interested in these topics of potential menopause related leave, for example. And why is that? Because an extraordinary number of older workers are still employed in the workforce. And also, as folks get older, they find themselves having increased responsibility for parents or partners whom aging, and they themselves would benefit from time off. So, we are thinking about where the impetus for change can come from, and we think there's a great synergy if we can communicate how we all can benefit from more flexibility in the workplace. But one of the things that we have been focused on, and I'll turn it to Emily so she can talk a little bit more about the way the law takes a different approach, depending on whether there are children involved or potential children versus the absence of children.

Emily Waldman: Yeah. So, one of the things that we've noticed, sort of one of our theories for why there has been so much more of a legal push over the years to have accommodations for pregnancy and breastfeeding, is that there's a baby involved with breastfeeding and there's the possibility of a baby or a fetus involved with pregnancy. If you look at the rhetoric that surrounds laws like requiring breastfeeding accommodations, often it's not even about the employee. They're like, well, it's so important to the baby's health for the baby to get breast milk. So, we're sort of doing it for that or in the context of pregnancy. One really interesting thing is that even before the Pregnant Workers Fairness act was passed on the federal level, you had a number of states requiring pregnancy accommodations on the state level. And it was sort of held up as this one issue that pro-choice and pro-life people could agree on because everybody wants what's best for the fetus. So pro-life people talking about, we don't want someone to be lifting a lot and then have a miscarriage. So, like, this whole sort of Fetal protection rationale or baby protection rationale just doesn't exist with menstruation and especially with menopause. Right. And so, you're absolutely right. Menopause in particular, really is not about potential fertility, let alone, like, an actual baby. And so, it's implicating a different set of interests.

Kim Krawiec: I really like this part of the book, by the way. I had not thought of that explanation before, and yet it made a lot of sense as I read it. It just seems really quite intuitive, especially when combined with the data. I feel like there has been more focus lately on maternal health outcomes in the US being much poorer than they should be, while when it comes to infant care and baby sort of, this kind of seemed consistent with that entire story to me in some way.

Jenna Smith: All right thank you so much. And then I think we have our next question on this topic from Mary Beth.

Mary Beth Bloomer: Hi Bridget, hi Emily. Thank you so much for joining us today. My question kind of also touches on accommodations for people, but specifically, I wanted to ask about educational environments, because when I was reading the excerpts we were given, law school popped into my head just because as a 1L, my 1L doctrinals, I had many professors either outright say, do not use the bathroom during my class, or they discouraged us from using the bathroom during class. And then along with that, there's this pressure of I don't want to go during class because I don't want to miss anything at all. And then in between classes, we'd often just have ten minutes in between classes. The woman's restrooms would have lines that were so long because everyone would be going at the same time, that it was just impossible to go and make your next class in time. So, all that being said, I'm just curious about what you both think. Educational institutions in general, maybe law school specifically, if you have any law school specific ideas, but what educational institutions in general can do to correct these blind sights that harm menstruating people.

Emily Waldman: Yes. So, I remember a similar experience, not so much in law school, but I vividly remember a high school English class where the English teacher told us all at the beginning of the year, cannot go to the bathroom during class. I will let you go one time if it's an emergency. And I distinctly remember someone at one point saying, I have to go to the bathroom. And the teacher saying, well, is this your one emergency? And I remember thinking to myself, oh, my God, what if I have two emergencies over the course? That stress of when you would use it. And it really stuck with me as an example of teachers sort of being unfair and abusing their power. And I don't even think I was thinking about it specifically in terms of the gendered implications and menstruation, but just in general, could have other reasons why it's an emergency to go to the bathroom. And it could happen more than once. But it did stay with me. And when we started working on this project, when in our chapter about periods in schools, a lot of it talked about other things, like providing period products and things like that. But we also thought about policies that have sort of facially neutral policies, but that are having a disparate impact with respect to menstruation. Right. And then obviously that has natural implications in terms of having a disparate impact with respect to sex. So, one of them was uniforms, having to wear light colored uniforms that can show menstrual stains. But another was those sort of policies where teachers are super strict about letting students go to the bathroom or sort of interrogating them about why do you need to go. And what we saw, at least with sort of younger students, like middle school and high school, was that this sort of stress sometimes even prompts people to not go to school at all when they have their period or leave early because they just don't want to be stuck in an embarrassing or uncomfortable situation. And students tend to be terrified by the thought of having anyone at school realize that they have their period, let alone a teacher, let alone having to say that. And so, at a minimum, I think really, those types of policies are problematic. At the law school level, I think people are a little bit less cowed by teachers than 13-year-olds. But still, when you have your professor making it seem like going to the bathroom shows some sort of disrespect or that you don't care about the class, I think it puts people in a really uncomfortable, unfair position when probably they don't want to have to get up and miss class, and now they're in this sort of awkward, impossible situation. So obviously you can't tell professors that they have to stop class for everyone when someone is going so that they don't miss anything. That wouldn't be reasonable. And that would probably make that person also feel embarrassed. But I think professors really have to understand that they should not be telling people they shouldn't go to the bathroom or sort of making them feel uncomfortable about it.

Bridget Crawford: One of the questions that guided all of our research and our writing was what would the world look like if it took menstruation into account? How would things like law school classroom rules be different? And I think we all know if the world were designed around the physical needs of half the population, there wouldn't be a rule like that. And although I like to think that law professors are more educated than many folks, the fact is, a lot of men simply don't understand the basics of menstruation. They don't understand that it's not something we can control. They don't understand that depending on one's other medical issues, menstruation may come on very quickly, and it is possible to bleed through one's clothes unexpectedly. We don't always know when our periods are coming. We don't know how heavy they will be. And no matter how prepared we are, there can be reasons that one does need to get up in the middle of class. And so, I would encourage any law students who are issuing or who are listening to this podcast, or law professors or anyone involved in education, think about what one can do institutionally to educate the faculty on precisely that question. What would the world look like if it took menstruation into account? And if you have a women's association of law students or a committee at your school that addresses classroom policies or other curricular issues, sometimes all it takes is someone just mentioning, hey, this has a disparate impact on folks who are menstruating. And I believe that our colleagues of good faith will step up and respond appropriately and accordingly. Sometimes they're just perpetuating the same system that they were taught under when there were no women in law school. So, we can do better, and I think we will do better, and we should all be empowered to speak up to ask for what we need and deserve.

Kate Granruth: I really love that response. I will never forget being in high school and utterly terrifying my AP history teacher when he accused me of leaving the room too many times for going to the nurse. And I said, oh, I just have a lot really bad cramps. And he went AHH, just screamed. So, I really appreciate that sort of Call to Action. And this transitions really well into our next subject area about the sort of social perceptions of menstruation and menopause and the role that those perceptions have in business and educational institutions. And kicking off that section is Darius.

Darius Adel: Hi Bridget and Emily. Nice to meet you both. In your book Contextualizing Menopause in the Law, you both write about how the negative attitudes of menopause, menstruation, pregnancy, and breastfeeding stem from sexism. Is there a suggestion that this sexism is more rooted in a type of gynophobia or potentially influenced by capitalist notions that regard these aspects of womanhood as less efficient? Or are there other factors at play that contribute to these attitudes?

Emily Waldman: I think maybe some of it, if I'm understanding the question, the sexism, I think, comes from a couple of different angles. I think some of it is just sort of like physical distaste or discomfort with the idea that these processes sort of involve, to be blunt, like sort of like fluids, right? Whether it's like breast milk or menstrual blood or things like that. Things that sort of seem, like, physically messy, and there's some sort of stigma or distaste around that. I think another piece is this idea that they all involve hormones. And so, sort of this idea that people undergoing any of these processes think about sort of the stereotypes of them being hormonal, right? Like that someone getting their period, oh, they have bad PMS, they're in a bad mood, they're moody. That is also applied to menopause, right? That People are moody because, oh, are you going through menopause and things like that? Same with pregnancy, too, right? Like, oh, you must have Pregnancy brain. So, there's this idea that the hormones are making the people who are having those conditions less competent in the workplace in addition to this sort of physical distaste. And then, I think not so much with menopause, but with the pregnancy and breastfeeding then there’s also this idea of, now there’s a baby in the mix. And on the one hand, we talked about how that sort of prompts these laws that are kind of protective, but on the other hand, they're raising the idea that maybe the employee now isn't thinking so much about work because she's about to have a baby or she does have a baby. So, I think it's all of those things together that lead to those negative attitudes, right? Like the physical sort of stickiness and messiness, the hormones that are affecting, like, theoretically affecting psychology or mood or things like that. And then the idea that, oh you’re a mother, so now you don’t care about work.

Kim Krawiec: One of the things Darius and I talked about as we were discussing this question and your work on this was whether in addition to all of the things, you just mentioned whether there's just kind of a default notion of the ideal worker, and that ideal worker doesn't menstruate or get pregnant or need to express milk or breastfeed or any of those things, right? And sure, those things may have some costs from an efficient workplace perspective, but so do lots of stereotypically or solely male behaviors, right? In a way that I’m not sure we think about it in the same way. And I think that’s what Darius was getting at with his question about sort of efficiency and capitalism, is whether we just have this idea of what a good worker is and that worker doesn’t do any of these things. 

Bridget Crawford: I think that’s exactly right. The “leaky body” or the “unpredictable body” is a trope that has been in culture all the time, going back to Shakespeare, where Portia stabs herself to prove that she is a voluntary bleeder, not an involuntary bleeder, to show that she is worthy and belongs in the male arena. This notion is that the leaky body, the involuntarily leaky body, or the unpredictable body in menopause is somehow less than. And granted, let’s be cognizant of the fact that many women have always worked. Black women in this country have always worked and have always worked outside the home in addition to inside the home. But for the stereotypical notion, I think there is some truth that the leaky and unpredictable body belongs in the private sphere, and only the predictable body is a worthy participant in the capitalist marketplace economy. But of course, the racial realities of the United States give lie to exactly the way in which that metaphor has never been true and hurts all of us.

Darius Adel: Thank you both.

Jenna Smith: Thank you so much. That was such an insightful perspective. And then we have Anu up next.

Anu Goel: Hi, thank you so much for being here. I was in a similar vein, kind of reflecting on the general role that the patriarchy plays and discrimination against individuals who menstruate while I was doing this reading and I thought back to a discussion that I frequently had with my friends, which is about the painful experience of getting an IUD placed. Typically, doctors do not provide us with any kind of pain medication, despite the procedure being so invasive. But amongst my friends, we've always talked about how if men were the ones who had to have them placed, they would likely get pain medication for it, in the same way that we see it's quite commonplace for there to be free condoms available. But on the other hand, I've always wondered if men were the ones who menstruated, would period products be free or more easily accessible. And what you thought about that?

Emily Waldman: Well, it's funny. I don't know if any of you have seen Gloria Steinem a number of decades ago, wrote this whole really sort of funny satirical piece about if men could menstruate. And it was talking about all those sorts of things. Like, if men could menstruate, period products would be free, and there would be no stigma. People would be bragging about how much they menstruate, like “he's a three-pad man,” and then things like that. So, I think, sure, when you think about the counterfactual, it's hard not to think it would be different. What I think is really interesting, too, about that IUD comment is it comes back to, I think, the very first question when we were talking about this idea of “it's normal,” almost being like a double-edged sword, right? Like, on the one hand, you don't want to pathologize menstruation and other sort of natural conditions inevitably experienced by half the population, right? So, you don't want to say it's abnormal/normal. But on the other hand, the fact that it's normal can mean number one, you're not entitled to accommodations under the law. And number two, it can be sort of a dismissing thing from doctors. It reminds me of what Kate was saying, right? It's normal to have all this pain, so don't do anything about it. Similar with the IUD point. And so I think that “normal” thing, it really is a double edged sword. You want it to be normal. We want it to be normal, but we don't want to sort of minimize the pain that's attached to it. It makes me think, too. I don't know if anyone saw it. There was a really interesting New York Times article in the past year about extreme nausea during pregnancy, hyperemesis, and how that was another thing that just like, “Oh, that's normal. That just happens to some people. Maybe it's psychological.” And it took this incredible researcher, this woman who in her own life had had very serious hyperemesis and actually had a miscarriage as a result. And she was this incredible researcher, and she devoted her life to looking and it turns out there's, like, a specific sort of scientific thing, a specific gene that some people have for why they experienced it. So, it wasn't just, “Oh, being nauseous is normal,” right? It really is important to get beyond that. And I think the same thing is going on with the IUD thing on a smaller scale. “Oh, it's like, not a big deal. That's normal. Everyone feels a little pain.” We have to move past that.

Bridget Crawford: I think women's pain is routinely underestimated by everyone in the healthcare system, both men and women. There is this false belief that women are oversensitive, that they exaggerate, and that men are stoic. And unfortunately, there are too many stories of women whose suffering is dismissed. And the same is true of Black and brown folks as well. Their pain gets dismissed, or they're stereotyped as drug-seeking when they ask for pain relief. And that's something that we need to continually speak against and always assert your right to be listened to. And if you have the ability to switch providers when your pain isn't being taken seriously, we have to do that, too. Of course, not everyone has that ability to switch providers, but to the extent that exists as an option, I always remind myself and my family and my friends of that.

Kate Granruth: And so, our next question is going to be from Gabriele.

Gabriele Josephs: Hi, thank you for joining us. So, it is shocking that so many people in our society menstruate, and yet we don't have a sophisticated vocabulary for menstruation. I think this is one of many examples where a thing that only happens to a subset of the population is easier to pathologize than are things that happen to all or most people. As we push for more sophisticated understandings of menstruation, how do we draw a bigger circle around menstruation to show that everyone should care about menstrual equity?

Bridget Crawford: That is the challenge for all of us who care about issues of gender equity in the workplace, in school, in our political life, in our home lives, this is really a challenge. Lots of our colleagues who work in this space would say it starts with education. And shockingly, not every public school system is required to provide menstruation-related education. And even in schools where it is required, or in states where it is required, it's not required to be medically accurate. So there is a challenge right there, a structural challenge, when we're not getting this information to kids in school. And for those of us who did had menstruation related education in school, sometimes the experience is the boys go to one room, the girls go to another room. And of course, that's problematic for kids who don't identify as either gender. They're forced to choose in a way that may be uncomfortable or to out themselves. But also, it means that sometimes the education is gender-segregated, and not everyone gets the same information. And that's really a shame. There is one study we can try to pull it up where a group of, I believe, college-aged men were surveyed and asked, do you believe that menstruation is painful? And they all said, a very high degree said, “Yes, we believe that menstruation can be painful,” but that same group of people thought that women faked or exaggerated their symptoms as well. So, we have extraordinary natures that can hold multiple ideas at one time. And you are really inviting us, you are really inviting us, Gabriele, to think widely and broadly and inclusively, because cutting off the talents and potential and participation of half of the population makes absolutely no sense to anyone. So, I'd like to start with the schools, but that's problematic. But we can expand out from there.

Emily Waldman: Yeah, I'm remembering the study, or it was research that I remember we heard about from. It was a medical student with men sort of simultaneously thinking of menstruation as very debilitating, but yet also sort of thinking that women were exaggerating. And it was like, how could that be both? I think you're absolutely right. Everyone needs to have more of an understanding. And then I think one sort of related point is, the one we talked about earlier is that when we're thinking about solutions. So, for example, in the workplace, thinking about broader initiatives that can encompass everybody, right? So then everyone sort of has a stake in it. If in general, you have sort of more of an ability to have a flexible schedule for things relating to not just menstruation, but like menopause, pregnancy, breastfeeding and other things. Right. Then everyone can sort of see themselves as sort of part of wanting there to be change, because to some extent, people care about how it affects them in this way, there's the potential for it to affect everybody.

Kim Krawiec: I can't tell you guys how much I've thought about you and your work and have mentioned it to others over the course of, say, the past six months as part of a project, which I will be sending you for comments as soon as we have a draft. I've been interviewing a number of founders, investors, others in the Femtech/Fem-health space. Some of it focused on sexual wellness, some of it not. They all repeat a story that is almost identical to the one that Bridget told about the problems of the lack of decent sex education in the US, presenting, really, in their view, at least some fairly serious knock-on effects. Because if you're out trying to raise millions of dollars from mostly male investors and VCs, and they don't really understand anything about menstruation or the female body or female needs, then how can they understand your product, right? And the need for it? And how can they ask sensible questions? And nobody just writes you a $10 million check unless they can ask you questions and get reassurances about these things. And the story is very similar, with a recognition as well that it's a societal problem. It's not like men want to be ignorant of this, necessarily. It's like we've kind of taught them that they're not supposed to know this stuff and we don't talk to them about it.

Bridget Crawford: I think that's right. I know I received my sex ed in a class that was just girls. The boys were across the hallway.

Kim Krawiec: Same. 

Bridget Crawford: But when we treat it as something that cannot talk to each other about, just like we talk about your wisdom teeth come in in your twenties and you might need, this is how your body might respond to it. It seems like we have to normalize these conversations. But you mentioned Femtech. Let's be clear that menstruation is also super profitable for some companies and wherein there is a profit to be made. My guess is that investors of all gender identities will be quick to follow.

Jenna Smith: All right, thank you so much. And then up next we have Joseph.

Joseph Camano: Yeah, thank you. So, I was interested to see in the book that there was a brief mention about the potential role that shareholder activists may have to play in encouraging corporations to adopt standards that align with menstrual equity ideals. So, I was wondering if either of you have come across any recent shareholder activist activities that include menstrual equity as a part of their ESG promoting framework? Because in my mind, I think of companies like the institutional shareholder services that provide proxy voting advice for institutional investors like brokerage firms, mutual funds, hedge funds, and pension funds. So, I was wondering if the ISS, or advising companies like it, have again begun to include menstrual equity as a part of their ESG advice? And if not, do you all see this as an effective method of herding corporations in the right direction from where they currently are?

Bridget Crawford: Thank you so much for that, Joseph. That is a sophisticated strategy that we're not yet seeing developing in the shareholder space. And as you know, ESG initiatives themselves are under somewhat diminishing attractiveness to many companies as there is a struggle over what ESG means and its profitability. So far, we have seen some sort of grassroots organizing around corporate policies. Women's Voices for the Earth is an amazing advocacy and information organization that helped get the word out, for example, about some Proctor and Gamble products, and organize some old-fashioned boots on the ground protests. We see social media being deployed by women in Kenya, for example, complaining about rashes related to fragrances and other adhesives used in products. But we have not yet seen the shareholder space in the US taking up menstruation as an issue. I am hopeful that it could be one of the next important issues that is part of a robust gender equity agenda for shareholders, et cetera. But so far, not yet. I am excited about that as a strong strategy.

Kate Granruth: Thank you. And sort of following up on that, Dennis has a question about company policy as well and the role of what we've been talking about.

Dennis Ting: Yeah, thank you so much. So, I'm curious how work-from-home after the pandemic has affected people who have experienced these symptoms of menopause or pregnancy. So, for example, we discussed having the ability to control your own temperature, to express milk or breastfeed, take bathroom breaks as needed. And I'm interested if there's been any research done on this area and how this might factor into companies that are debating or pushing for a return to office.

Emily Waldman: That's a great question. I don't know about a ton of specific research on how it's affected those symptoms yet, but I know that generally research has shown that the work-from-home policies that started getting adopted during the pandemic have actually been very beneficial to female employees. That researchers have credited that as being one of the things that has kept female employees’ work rates pretty high. I think in the context I've seen it, it's had to do more with female employees who had young kids at home and that this was enabling them to better sort of balance childcare responsibilities because they weren't losing time to commuting and things like that. But I think, absolutely, if you look at what people say they want, when, for example, you look at menopause policies that some workplaces are starting to adopt, especially in the UK, the desire for flexibility and working from home is something that's mentioned a lot. And I think you're absolutely right. It cuts across so many different things, from being able to control temperature, being able to have access to your own bathroom, being able to go to the bathroom when you want, right? Breastfeeding, being able to just be on a more flexible schedule, being able to maybe lie down and do some of your work while you're resting. It cuts across so many different processes and frankly, not just things that are reproduction related, right? All sorts of other medical needs. So, absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that has been like a pushback against just employers saying everyone has to come back to the office. There are a lot of people who, for different reasons, these and others are saying now that I've gotten a taste of what it's like to do remote work for me, that really works well right now. Not to say that they will never come into the office, and not to say that there aren't things that they benefit about that too, but that flexibility in particular, I think even more than just working from home, having flexibility to work from home when you need to is something that's really important to people.

Bridget Crawford: And of course, as part of that conversation, we recognize that not all workers have the ability or luxury of working from home. For folks who are in customer facing, often low wage jobs, they don't have the option. And so, to the extent that work from home has opened up many people's eyes to the need for flexibility, we really are hoping that stability can also apply to folks who have never been given the opportunity and will never be given the opportunity to work from home as well. Low wage workers in particular, deserve all of the same flexibilities as well.

Dennis Ting: Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Jenna Smith: Thank you so much. I know I'm going into big law after graduation, and I noticed that a lot of the women at my firm are the ones who tend to take advantage of those work from home policies. So, I think that's going to be really interesting to see where firms and companies go on that going forward. And then next up, from Darius, we have a shift from more of a business policy topic to more of a society broader policy topic.

Darius Adel: Hello again. I think that one solution to menstrual stigma would be a socialist one, in which menstrual products are made free as part of a wider universal healthcare initiative. Accommodations for different phases of the administration cycle would similarly be a right like any other physical accommodation. Do you all think that these solutions may be missing the point of addressing the unique stigma of menstruation by bundling them up with other considerations?

Emily Waldman: I'm interested in Bridget's reaction. I don’t. I actually really tend towards solutions that are broader like that, rather than holding out. Menstruation or let's say menopause is this really unusual thing that needs a very specific solution where someone announces that they are going through menopause, or they have their period, and they need this special thing. I think the more that it is contextualized alongside other needs for accommodations, the better. It sort of goes back to the workplace changes we were talking about, because there's no reason necessarily that it should be held out as its own thing, then that also raises this idea of people think, well, what's in it for me, if only that gets accommodated. So, I think for a lot of reasons, it's more likely to be effective if you have broad-based accommodations. And I also actually think it reduces stigma in some ways because it's like, it's just like a lot of other things that require accommodations. It isn't so different. But Bridget, I'm curious if that's your reaction as well.

Bridget Crawford: Well, Darius, I'd like to hear from you a little more. What are you thinking about? Whether things like wide availability of products or workplace considerations, accommodations you had referenced, are those missing the point? Is your thought that maybe those aren't effective? I want to make sure I'm meeting you where your concern is.

Darius Adel: Sure. And I don't have a big concern about it. I think it would be effective. I was just wondering if maybe that's not shining a light on the stigma as much like it's kind of sweeping it under the rug by bundling it up with a bunch of other things. Again, I think it would be probably more effective to do it this way. I was just wondering if this is maybe not addressing the actual unique stigma as much.

Kim Krawiec: I'm guessing that it could be possible to, that these would be effective mechanisms for addressing the immediate accommodation needs associated with menstruation, menopause. But at the same time, if we bundle it together with everything else, then we're still not talking about it. It may reinforce the sort of silence and or stigma. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Darius, if this isn't what you meant.

Darius Adel: No, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Bridget Crawford: Yeah, I think it's absolutely a fair point. I'm not sure I'm willing to say that the stigma around menstruation is actually all that different than the stigma around menopause. For example, there are different words that we use. There's some ageism folded in with menopause that isn't inherently in the menstruation conversation. But your point is well taken all the same, that in bundling we necessarily lose some richness to the analysis. So your fair point, and very much so.

Darius Adel: Thank you.

Jenna Smith: Thank you so much. And I think you saying the phrase richness of the analysis tees up my next question perfectly. So, the piece does briefly touch on the fact that not everyone who menstruates is a woman. Many trans people or no- binary people assigned female at birth still menstruate, but they're often excluded from discussions about this topic. Do you think there's any unique challenges they face because of this? And what are potential solutions for people who are in this menstrual advocacy space to be more accommodating?

Bridget Crawford: So, I think here we certainly believe in the value of using gender inclusive language in recognizing that menstruation isn't solely a, quote, “woman's domain.” Absolutely true. And the hyper-gendered nature of menstrual products, menstrual advertising discourse around menstruation can be very alienating for trans and gender-diverse folks who don't have access to gender-sensitive care and healthcare providers who can sensitively address their issues. And not all trans and gender nonbinary or gender-diverse folks experience gender dysphoria. But certainly, for some folks, for some trans men, going to a gynecologist office can be a source of emotional distress. So, it is important that our conversation always broaden the lens to recognize that menstruation comes in many, many different forms with those unique challenges, and it's incumbent upon each and every one of us who takes part in this justice conversation to be inclusive. That being said, let's also recognize the very gendered nature of the misogyny around discourse around menstruation and menopause, and those two things can exist together, those two understandings of the need to be inclusive in our approach, but also understanding the deeply gendered roots of that taboo and stigma and shame.

Kate Granruth: Thank you so much. And I think that sort of general topic of empathy is the theme for my next question. I'm not sure if this is like a commonly seen or if you know this social media trend, but there's a current social media trend for men to try period simulators, like period cramp simulators, where they attach a machine to their privates which simulates muscle contractions through electrical stimuli. I'm not sure if you've seen the videos. It's usually a bunch of men experiencing a low-level cramp and then screaming in pain. And I'm curious what effect you think this sort of empathizing would have on period stigma. Like, in a sense, it's as close as we could get to Steinem's essay becoming reality. And to what extent do we need to get men on board with these physical experiences for them to take them seriously? And should we instead just demand that they believe our pain without having to experience it themselves?

Emily Waldman: I had not seen that. I'm curious how many of you had?

Kim Krawiec: I had not until Kate sent it to us. And then thanks a lot, Kate for making me waste 2 hours or so out of the day when I should have been preparing for class. But, yeah, they were amusing and disturbing and I don't know, I'm interested to hear what you think about this.

Emily Waldman: So, I'm just hearing about it now, and I haven't watched the videos. I guess I have mixed feelings in that. Okay, if that makes some people more empathetic, great. I don't know if there's, like, an aspect of it that it's like, even if this wasn't the intention, like a little bit of mockery or something, I don't know. I don't love that. I guess the other thing is that I think one of the things that we talked about in our book is the different challenges. It's not just all about do you have bad cramps or not, right? I mean, a lot of what we talked about in the book was other things. Like, in particular, like needing product, being able to afford products. Right? So that connects to issues of the tampon tax and also students being in schools and not having products, people who are in prisons not having products, things like that. And so, it doesn't really touch on that. It certainly doesn't touch as much on things now, we're thinking about with menopause, unless you would have people like doing simulators for hot flashes and things like that. I guess I, I think it's fine. But I don't know that it really advances the discussion that much when we really want to think much more broadly about all of the different effects and then how workplaces and schools and society can sort of adjust and make changes to take all of those things into account, and they can't change in a way that eliminates cramps. Now, sure, they can be more accommodating in terms of letting people take off, but I think it's really a bigger issue than that. So, I don't know if it will really move the needle that much.

Kate Granruth: Bridget, I saw that you have seen the videos, so I'm very curious on your specific thoughts.

Bridget Crawford: I have seen the videos, but like Emily, I'm not sure whether they have a sort of instrumental function for those of us involved in this particular justice movement. There's a performative aspect of the videos, like all of social media. And so, I'm not calling out those videos as more performative than others, but these are videos that seek to feminize men for laugh. And that, in and of itself is puzzling and plays into all sorts of stereotypes. For me, this is the equivalent of the college fraternity that does the high heel run for charity every year. Isn't it funny to watch men try to run in high heels? Well, yeah, it is. But it's not funny when you're the one in high heels trying to get away from someone who is trying to hurt you. So that women's lives, women's pain, that women's expense is the source of someone else's humor. Maybe I'm just one of those angry feminists who can't take a joke, but I'd be asking my male friends to try these anytime soon.

Bridget Crawford: I just want to say how impressive I find all of you. This is really an amazing experience to watch all of you with your wheels in motion and really a privilege to be a part of. And your preparation is top notch. And go UVA!

Kim Krawiec: Thank you, Bridget.

Emily Waldman: Fully agree.

Kim Krawiec: I'm going to take credit for them. I mean, I don't deserve it, but who's going to stop me? It's my podcast.

Kate Granruth: I will turn it over to Joseph whenever you're ready.

Joseph Camano: Thank you. So, the lack of menstrual equity as described is something that spans across countries and cultures. The book mentioned that other countries, such as Scotland, make their local governments provide such products free of charge. But in Japan, however, their efforts to provide menstrual leave policies have not been as well received. The book mentions that individuals are concerned that taking leave under that policy may lead to negative perceptions and stigma that might be generated out of that. Do you all foresee similar stigmatization occurring if, say, current breastfeeding or pregnancy policies were expanded to include menstruation? And maybe what, in your view, is the best way to approach this issue in the context of the workplace?

Emily Waldman: I think that's an interesting question because we had talked earlier about pregnancy and breastfeeding. Historically, I think they're sort of seen as different, and there are a bunch of reasons why they are not as stigmatized, and laws protecting them have been earlier to pass. So, one of them we already talked about was that with them, it's sort of like the employee can be like, well, it's not about me, it's about the baby, right, and that's the same reason why lawmakers have sort of gotten behind them. Right? So as an employee, I think it is true that maybe people feel like a little bit less sort of, that a stigma will attach to them if they need break time to go breastfeed or they need some other accommodation related to a pregnancy. Well, why is that? First of all, this idea of, oh, well, it's not anything for myself. I need it right now, and genuinely so because for my fetus or for the wellbeing of my child. Right? So, it's not about them asking for something for themselves. It's about their sort of being a mother. I think there are other reasons, too, why there's just less stigma in society surrounding those things. People are just sort of more public about pregnancy, in part because with pregnancy, you can't hide at a certain point that you're pregnant. Breastfeeding in many places right now, there's almost a stigma about not breastfeeding. Right? That-that is seen as, like, a good thing to do. So, there are all these sort of positive things about being pregnant or being breastfeeding, at least for some people. And so, I think employees don't feel as nervous about revealing that they're in those situations, whereas you don't get the same halo around you necessarily by saying, “Oh, I’m having really bad cramps or I’m having a hot flash.” There's just more of like a sort of, I think, positive associations for some people with aspects of pregnancy and breastfeeding. And I think also, when someone's an employee, when you think about pregnancy and breastfeeding, it's like a very time limited thing. Right? Like, for this many months, I’m going to be pregnant. I'm going to be breastfeeding for this many months. With menstruation, it's not like a time limited thing. It's sort of just an ongoing thing that you're going to need, maybe every month. So, I think for all of those reasons, there's more stigma attached. I do think that menstruation and menopause should be folded into policies for pregnancy and breastfeeding. I think it would probably help employees to have it done that way. But even so, I think you may have employees who feel, like, a little more reluctant to avail themselves of the policy for menstruation and menopause than they would for pregnancy or breastfeeding.

Jenna Smith: Thank you so much. And then I think we have one probably final question from Gabriele, just asking a little bit more about the future.

Gabriele Josephs: Thank you. So, my question is pretty simple. Are you hopeful about the trajectory of menstrual politics and why?

Bridget Crawford: I am hopeful. I think we are in a time of extraordinary change. When Emily and I first started doing this work over seven years ago, a tax on menstrual products was quite common in the United States. And practically speaking, that tampon tax has been repealed in state after state after state. There are only 21 states to go, and I am optimistic that the tampon tax will be repealed. Not that tax is the only issue, but it's a symbolic one, and it's one that's very salient. It's one we can see literally on receipts and as we see the money going out of our wallets. That being said, I'm also cognizant. I'm aware of the way that bills making menstrual products available in schools are being politicized. These, at least for several years, garnered fantastic bipartisan response because keeping kids in school without stigma or shame really is a bipartisan issue. Unfortunately, we see some state legislatures blocking bills trying to put free menstrual products in schools. One opponent in Idaho, for example, asked, “Why are we talking about the private parts of our children?” Well, we're not talking about the private parts of children. We're talking about equal participation in school. Menstrual equity, period poverty are being branded by some as “woke terms.” Where woke just doesn't mean pay attention, where woke there is used as a negative, and I think that's unfortunate. So folks who work in this space, ourselves included, who are interested in menstrual equity, menopause related issues, 

and justice for all people need to continue to emphasize again and again this is about everybody in society being able to participate without regard to an involuntary biological process.

Emily Waldman: And I'm also hopeful. I would just to pivot a little bit to the menopause topic. I am hopeful because there is so much more sort of cultural attention to menopause than there had been. You see really prominent people like Michelle Obama and Oprah Winfrey and celebrities like Drew Barrymore. People are just being much more open about their own experiences with menopause. And the first step toward chipping away at stigma is just talking about it. And you're seeing more about menopause in terms of culture. You're seeing more medical research on menopause. And so I am optimistic about those developments, and I think they're also going to help push the law forward in terms of taking menopause into account.

Kim Krawiec: This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much.

Bridget Crawford: Thank you for having us. Please feel free to link with us on LinkedIn if you'd like to stay in touch. I'm on LinkedIn solely to link with students, so I'd welcome hearing from any of you and a privilege to be here. Thank you so much.

Emily Waldman: Thank you so much. Take care.